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The Taylor Swift ticket sale crash was a bit like a Prada store break-in… and 4 other things we learned from Michael Rapino’s new podcast interview

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The controversy over live performance ticket pricing appears to haven’t any finish, and Ticketmaster – the dominant ticket vendor in North America – is taking the brunt of the storm.

The US Division of Justice is once again investigating the company over alleged anti-competitive practices, and a congressional committee has taken up the trigger, ostensibly on the aspect of customers who’re complaining about what some see as more and more unreasonable costs.

This comes on the heels of some high-profile controversies over ticket costs and gross sales. In 2022, followers of Bruce Springsteen have been up in arms over “platinum” tickets for the Boss’s tour that bought for as a lot as USD $5,000.

And in November, Ticketmaster’s gross sales system appeared to crash underneath the load of monumental demand for tickets to Taylor Swift’s The Eras tour.

In a brand new – and really wide-ranging – interview on the Bob Lefsetz Podcast, Michael Rapino, CEO and President of Ticketmaster mum or dad Dwell Nation Leisure, addressed all of those points and extra.

Rapino has been CEO/Prez of Dwell Nation since 2005, and steered the corporate by its much-debated merger with Ticketmaster in 2010.

Extra lately, he skilfully guided Dwell Nation by the uncertainty of the pandemic years (see 2020 and 2021 beneath), whereas delivering all-time-record annual revenues and ticket gross sales in FY 2022 ($16.68bn in income; over 550m tickets).

(Rapino was properly rewarded for this efficiency: he earned USD $139 million from Dwell Nation in 2022, together with $116.7 million in inventory awards.)

Rapino’s look on the Lefsetz podcast was an opportunity to make a optimistic public case for his firm extra forcefully – one thing he says he uncared for to do previously.

MBW listened in; listed here are 5 issues we discovered…


In line with US Senator Amy Klobuchar, who sits on the Senate Committee for Shopper Safety, Ticketmaster controls about 70% of the music ticket market within the US.

“In fact, there isn’t a different selection. It’s a monopoly,” she told the media.

Nevertheless, Michael Rapino argues the concept Ticketmaster (underneath Dwell Nation’s possession) is a monopoly is predicated on a false impression of what the corporate does, and the way the stay music enterprise operates.

Venues themselves decide who sells tickets for them, and artists, by their brokers, set the worth of tickets, Rapino defined on the Bob Lefsetz Podcast.

“Within the easiest context, a venue, wherever you’re, decides who’s going to be their ticketing firm,” Rapino stated.

He stated there’s “irony” in the concept Ticketmaster controls the costs for large-scale reveals, as a result of “usually that venue [owner] is a billionaire that’s constructing a billion-dollar-plus enviornment or stadium.”

The world places out a request for proposals, and ticketing firms reminiscent of Ticketmaster, AEG and SeatGeek put in proposals.

“You wouldn’t discover a monopoly in historical past that has a ten%, 11% margin. Monopoly means you could have sufficient pricing energy to have a really excessive margin return… [this] is a low margin enterprise on the core.”

Michael Rapino, Dwell Nation

Finally, in Rapino’s view, it’s the venues that actually have pricing energy.

“Though it doesn’t seem to be it on Twitter at occasions, it’s a aggressive course of. … We simply misplaced the stadium in Washington to SeatGeek. So what [venues] ask for, somebody can pay.”

Typically, the ticket vendor takes a 20% minimize of the ticket value, with the remainder going to the venue and the artist. That share can improve to 25% or 30% on higher-end seats, Rapino defined.

For Rapino, the smoking-gun proof that ticket-selling isn’t a monopolized enterprise is the revenue margins. He says his firm’s general revenue margin is round 10% or 11%, with margins from ticket gross sales sometimes within the 2% to 4% vary. LN’s sponsorships enterprise, he says, sees a lot larger margins of round 35%.

“You wouldn’t discover a monopoly in historical past that has a ten%, 11% margin,” he advised Bob Lefsetz. “Monopoly means you could have sufficient pricing energy to have a really excessive margin return. So… [this] is a low-margin enterprise on the core.”


One main difficulty driving damaging perceptions of the ticketing enterprise are the extra charges added at checkout, which may typically drive up the worth of a ticket properly past the preliminary value proven to ticket-buyers.

Usually there will likely be a facility price – an extra income for the venue – a bank card price which will seem as a part of a processing price, and a service price. In all, it may make a big distinction within the ticket value.

Dwell Nation’s most up-to-date controversy over charges got here earlier this yr, when The Treatment went on tour, making some extent of limiting ticket costs, with the bottom tickets promoting at round $20.

However then Treatment followers went on-line, sharing screencaps of their Ticketmaster buying baskets displaying service charges, facility costs and processing charges that in some instances have been larger than the $20 ticket itself, greater than doubling the worth. Treatment frontman Robert Smith stated he was “sickened” by the apply.

“Ticketmaster’s job has been to take that punch within the head for the trade. That’s been a part of why they rent you. There’s no glory in being the ticketing firm.”

Michael Rapino, Dwell Nation

Tickemaster responded by offering partial refunds on the charges.

“We went to the venues and stated we’re going to cut back [the fees] by $10 and if you happen to don’t wish to be part of us, we’ll eat the distinction,” Rapino stated. “About half the venues stated ‘Alright we’ll be part of you on that,’ and the others stated ‘Good luck, eat it.’”

Rapino defined it like this: “The problem in our trade is now we have stored … the distribution price outdoors of the worth. Usually, if you purchase one thing at Walmart or Goal, it’s all in-built [to the price]. In our enterprise, for a lot of causes, it has stayed outdoors. We don’t suppose they’re junk charges, they’re not lovely add-ons to make a ton of cash.”

And Rapino says he could be glad to see the trade to an “all-in” ticket pricing mannequin, the place charges will likely be included within the marketed value.

“We’re glad [that] Pearl Jam introduced it at present on their world tour,” he stated, referring to the 90s alt-rock band’s announcement that it will have “all-in” ticket pricing for his or her reveals.

“We’re speaking to others,” Rapino added. “We’d go all-in pricing tomorrow. We’d love the trade to do it.”

However Rapino sees quite a lot of resistance to it within the trade. He says ticket sellers are anxious about dropping their aggressive edge in advertising and marketing in the event that they’re the primary out of the gate to supply all-in ticket costs.

“If it’s a $46 ticket and $73 at checkout, you’re going to win [by advertising the ticket at] $43 {dollars} on Google search each time.”

He famous that StubHub tried all-in ticket pricing a number of years in the past, “they usually ended up pulling out of it and stated their enterprise went down 15% or 20%. I believe that scared individuals. … so far we most likely all have been scared. You’re going to [have to] do it by yourself. The artists aren’t going to offer you a break.”

He provides that even when shifting to all-in pricing isn’t “rational,” with the followers annoyed as they’re, “we’ve received to construct some belief again.”

Rapino stated: “We haven’t accomplished a superb job as an trade, and particularly on my entrance as Dwell Nation/Ticketmasater, explaining out loud what occurs with the ticket charges, how they’re set. There hasn’t been a giant motive, traditionally, for me to … say the venue, my consumer, is taking a lot of the cash, or the artist is setting the ticket value.

“Ticketmaster’s job has been to take that punch within the head for the trade. That’s been a part of why they rent you. There’s no glory in being the ticketing firm.”


The arrival of “dynamic pricing” – ticket costs rising or falling in real-time in response to demand – has confirmed to be one other PR headache for ticket sellers.

The controversy over Bruce Springsteen tickets in 2022 was an ideal instance, with “platinum” tickets – these for notably fascinating places within the enviornment – rising to as a lot as $5,000 per individual.

But it’s a apply that Rapino defends, arguing that many companies, together with airways and motels, have lengthy practiced dynamic pricing.

“Most dynamic merchandise aren’t charging the identical value on the final day,” he famous.

About 5 to eight years in the past, ticket sellers “began saying the scaling shouldn’t be the identical” for each present in each venue, Rapino defined.

“We began Pricemaster [Ticketmaster’s dynamic pricing app] years in the past to say to artists {that a} Friday night time in New York shouldn’t be the identical as a Tuesday in Cleveland.”

“As an trade, we’re studying the right way to value dynamic tickets to demand. We’re slowly placing higher guidelines in place to do it neatly.”

Michael Rapino, Dwell Nation

In Rapino’s view, there’s a excellent purpose for dynamic pricing, which is that, when there’s excessive demand for a specific present, however that present value is capped, it’s the scalpers who find yourself with the revenue. Artists themselves ought to study to cost their tickets “nearer to market,” Rapino asserts.

Relating to the controversy over the Springsteen tour, “solely about 1% of the seats have been over $1,000,” Rapino stated. In his view, all of the dynamic pricing did was switch the income from scalpers to the venue and Springsteen himself.

In Springsteen’s earlier tour, “the tickets went proper to the scalper and resold for $2,000. So this time we stated, ‘Bruce, you need to really get that cash. However let’s be sure that we preserve the remainder of the home low-cost.”

Nonetheless, Rapino admits the trade could have gone overboard with dynamic pricing popping out of the pandemic, because the live performance enterprise boomed and demand soared.

“We elevated extra of the allocation [to dynamic pricing]. The drug received a little bit extra horny. We began placing extra of the allocation to extend the gross.”

He added: “I believe we’re studying now. We’ve received to look at … the definition of ‘platinum’. We higher be sure that it’s [actually] a platinum seat. And if we’re going to [use dynamic pricing], we higher put higher guidelines in place [about] after we change ticket pricing. … So, as an trade, we’re studying the right way to value dynamic tickets to demand. We’re slowly placing higher guidelines in place to do it neatly.”


Within the digital age, scalping has modified fully. Lengthy gone are the times when people confirmed up on the field workplace early to purchase tickets, then bought them outdoors the venue door.

At this time, scalping is a giant enterprise carried out by bots that purchase massive chunks of tickets and resell them on the secondary market with massive mark-ups.

And in Rapino’s view, Dwell Nation is the one entity within the US market – together with the federal government – that’s attempting to do one thing about it. In reality, the Taylor Swift controversy occurred exactly due to efforts to cease bots from shopping for out the home, Rapino stated.

They tried to interrupt the doorways down. The fact is we stopped them. We needed to sluggish the system, however we stored them out… on the finish of the day we ended up delivering 2 million tickets to Taylor Swift followers.”

Michael Rapino, Dwell Nation

“When you go on the darkish net, you should buy an entire bunch of software program to attempt to hack the most recent on-sell,” he stated.  “It’s a really organized and [also] unorganized under-web of the $5 billion persons are attempting to entry,” he added, referring to his estimate of what the secondary ticket market is value.

With respect to bots, “it’s an arms race, it’s an inconceivable mission proper now,” Rapino stated.

He finds it perplexing that Ticketmaster was blamed for the Taylor Swift scenario, likening it to blaming Prada for somebody attempting to interrupt into the Prada retailer in Beverly Hills to steal high-end purses.

If individuals noticed movies of this hypothetical break-in at stated Prada retailer, urged Rapino, they’d say: “What’s occurring with the Beverly Hills Police Division, we’ve received to workers up.”

“They don’t blame the product,” Rapino quipped. “So what occurred with Taylor Swift was the Prada story.

“They [the bots] tried to interrupt the doorways down. The fact is we stopped them. We needed to sluggish the system, however we stored them out. They didn’t steal one bag, and on the finish of the day we ended up delivering 2 million tickets to Taylor Swift followers.”

He added: “We’re proud on the finish of the day that the purse didn’t get stolen. We have been capable of confirm [buyers’ identities] and ensure the tickets received into the fingers of followers.”


When requested the place the longer term alternatives are for Dwell Nation, Rapino careworn two areas: Growing markets, notably Latin America, and a give attention to high-end, premium experiences for music followers.

“That is an trade that … nonetheless doesn’t do an incredible job experientially,” he stated. “Loads of nice venues will likely be constructed, [there will be] higher experiences, higher-end premium experiences.”

However Rapino saves his enthusiasm for Dwell Nation’s prospects for additional worldwide growth.

“We like worldwide. You’re going to see quite a lot of growth in South America, Asia, you’re going to see us increasing,” Rapino stated, noting Dwell Nation’s 2021 buy, for over $400 million, of a majority stake in Mexico-based promoter OCESA.

“We will see 150 million to 175 million [fans coming to Live Nation-promoted shows annually] over the following 5 years.”

Michael Rapino

In these markets, you typically have “crappy arenas,” Rapino stated, not mincing phrases.

“There’s possibly a pageant, possibly a crappy ticketing system, no sponsors, so that you type of professionalize these companies if you roll in. We simply launched Ticketmaster Brazil. We’re going to construct an enviornment and a membership there, we introduced Lollapalooza there,” he stated, including that Dwell Nation introduced Lollapalooza to India as properly.

Dwell Nation-promoted reveals introduced in 50 million followers simply 4 or 5 years in the past, and in 2022, that rose to 125 million, stated Rapino.

“We will see 150 million to 175 million over the following 5 years,” Rapino added.

“The pie will get larger globally, and we will get larger earlier than even taking extra market share.”

You’ll be able to hearken to Michael Rapino’s full interview on the Bob Lefsetz podcast through here.Music Enterprise Worldwide


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